Meeting Transcript – Someren , Netherlands , July 2009
Transcribed by Natalia Maldonado 

Topics:  Question and answers / Self-enquiry / Fear / The war with feelings / Allowing and not allowing / The presence and absence of the character / Understanding this / Playing in the world

Jeff:  Life is never more complicated than what’s happening. You never have to deal with anything more than what’s happening, than what’s appearing right now. So, right now, sitting on a chair is happening, sitting on a chair is appearing, along with present sights and sounds and smells, and that’s it. It’s that simple.

Questioner:  But there seems to be a person here separate from this. Somebody who is afraid of something.

“It seems” -yes, it is always about the “seems”. There is only what’s happening, and then there is the story that comes in. So, the story says, I am a person sitting on a chair, I was born and I am going to die. And that whole story only has any reality in the “seems”, in the appearance. What is actually happening, you have no way of knowing. You have no way of knowing what is happening – there is only the cosmic mystery of it all -  until the story comes in, and says “I am a person on a chair, I am a little person in a big world”.

Fear is always, at its root, fear of nothing. But fear of nothing is not really fear of nothing, it’s fear of something. Your idea of nothing is your something. So, you get this concept of a big, black hole, a big black void called death. And that may be frightening but it is totally unreal; or if it is, it is as real as a nightmare; it is as real as a dream. We are never really afraid of nothing, what we fear is something. It’s a concept, your concept of nothing, which is something appearing here. Even ‘nothing’ appears here!

Q: Who made the dream? You say it is a dream, so, who made the dream?

That question happens within the dream and any answer you get to that question is part of the dream; it is a dream question with a dream answer; it is the separate wave - or the wave that thinks that it’s separate - in the ocean looking out at all the other waves and asking who made this? who did this? why are there so many separate waves? Who, how, what, where, why? And then it goes off and seeks answers, but it is always the wrong question to begin with.

Q: Because it is a question?

It is a dream question that will bring dream answers.

Q: So, any question brings you into the world?

Well, in a sense any question takes you away from this. It takes you into the story. There is nothing wrong with questions, though, if questions arise, of course.

Q: But the world tells us that we should ask questions.

But these questions are never your questions. All questions are second hand questions. The questions that we ask come out of the knowledge that is already there, you see. All the knowledge that you’ve ever been given, everything you have ever read, all the concepts that you’ve taken on, everything your parents taught you, society taught you, the books, everything, all the knowledge is there and the questions emerge out of that knowledge. The questions are an expression of the knowledge that is already there, so they are not really your questions, because it is not really your knowledge, it is second-hand knowledge. If there is no knowledge, there cannot be a question; if there is no story, there cannot be a question. In other words, to ask a question, you already must have separated yourself from life. You are asking a question about life having already moved away from life, so the question is already founded upon faulty assumptions.

The questions arise out of the knowledge that is already there, out of the conditioning, out of the concepts that you already have. The question is born out of those concepts. So, for example, the question “What is the Self?” already assumes a Self; the question “Who am I?” already assumes that there is an I there; the question “What is the purpose of this?” assumes that this has a purpose and that it can be found in time. And all of this is also the questioner, the one who asks questions.

Q: What about self-enquiry?

Any answer to the question “Who am I?” will be a concept.

Q: Isn’t there something there that I can find?

You see - who asks that question?

Q: Still that part of me which is not yet convinced!

Yes, exactly, so, even the question “Who am I?” is born out of frustration, all questions arise out of frustration, frustration of not knowing, it is simply an expression of frustration at your inability to grasp life.

Q: So, a question presupposes an answer? But… there must be an answer!

But the answer is not a concept. The answer is what you already are. What you already are is beyond all questions and answers. What this is, is always beyond all questions and answers. Any answer you get to a question will be just another concept. You see? We can’t stop asking questions, we don’t want to stop asking questions because who would we be without the questions? Who would you be without the questions?

Q: Do you have questions?

No.

Q: But aren’t questions arising as thoughts in your awareness?

Oh yes, of course. But only questions like “When is dinner?” Practical questions, the rest are useless. Thought always uses the mechanism of “putting in an effort to get what I want” or “asking questions to get what I want” and it thinks it can use that mechanism, which is quite useful in the world of course (for example to ask “Where is the train station?” and get an answer, it is very useful, very practical) to reach Life, to reach This.

Q: Or to control life?

To control life, yes. And the last place the mind wants to go is this: to see that the question doesn’t need an answer. That the question is just a sound.

Q: What is your experience of these sounds then?

This isn’t about me, it is not about me.

Q: Yes, but what has happened to your questions?

There are never questions about “What is the meaning of This?” or “how can I achieve enlightenment?” or anything like that. All those questions fell away when it was seen that they were built upon a faulty assumption; that there was a me separate from Life.

Q: So, what you are saying is that you still don’t know?

I am not saying that I don’t know, I am saying that it was the person looking for answers that fell away, into the not-knowing. Jeff cannot even say that he doesn’t know.

Q: So, there is no way of knowing this?

There is no way of knowing this, not on the level of the mind. And even the question “Who am I?”, ultimately points to this not knowing. So, even self-enquiry ultimately points to this. Self-enquiry appears to work because it fails! There’s no self to find!

Q:  So, it’s okay to continue to self enquire?

Yes, if you find yourself engaged in that, then of course. If you find yourself self-enquiring or playing pool, then that’s what’s happening. All I found ultimately with self-enquiry was three words and a question mark: WHO, AM, I, and a question mark, that is all I found. All I found was the question and what was seen was that the question was already that, the question was just arising in This. It didn’t need an answer, no question needs an answer. That is real Freedom.

Q: This is really, really, mind blowing.

And it is also a massive relief because it leaves you Here, because the answers are no longer out there. Every question implies an answer, answers are out there and one day I’ll find them. It is always one day, always one day. The seeing through of those questions leaves you Here, which  - if there is any answer – is the answer of all answers. THIS the answer.

Q: Okay, anyway, but it is big! Whatever way you approach it...

And it is also the simplest thing in the world. It’s huge and it’s tiny.

*

Q: It is frightening to give up some kind of control.

All fear is the fear of loss, the fear of losing something. Actually, in this, nothing is lost, because everything is just allowed to be there as it is; nothing is lost. It is just a fear of loss, that is all there is. And fear is just fear happening, right? Just fear happening in the moment. It is just energy happening, it is aliveness happening, it is aliveness in the body, dressed up as fear. It is life dancing as fear. Fear isn’t pointing to anything, there is nothing behind the fear, there is just fear happening. And the fear comes and goes in what you are, which does not come and go. So, what can be seen is that there is fear happening - if it is happening - but there is nothing to fear. The fear is always trying to say: “Look! There is something that is going to happen, something to fear.” But there is just the fear, and that future is always a projection.

Q: So, what is fear for, then?

It’s not for anything, it just appears, or not, in this. It’s only a problem if you are trying to escape it, otherwise, it is just something happening. So, for example, fear is happening, a bird is signing out there, the heater is making a noise, thoughts are happening – the fear just becomes part of what is happening, part of the texture of the moment. It is just energy.

Q: Maybe I am just not seeing it enough?

You’re probably too busy trying to escape it, yes! Actually, when anything arises - fear, anger, whatever - it is quite interesting sometimes, just to sit with it, really just to see it. It is just energy, tightness in the body, maybe, or in the stomach, a pain in the chest, just aliveness in the body and there is no problem with that, when it is seen for what it is.

Q: And then we make a story out of that aliveness?

Yes, then the story comes in, the story about “my fear”. “I need to get rid of my fear”… and then you move into the search. You have made it into something, into something solid, something separate from aliveness. But it’s not yours – nothing is yours. This aliveness is beyond your control. Anything can happen in this aliveness, anything.: Fear can come, if fear comes!

Q: So, is fear just something that I call fear?

Yes, exactly, it is something that you call “fear”. Beyond that, there is no way of knowing what it is. And then, along with that concept of fear, comes all the knowledge about fear, all the pre-conceptions and prejudices and opinions about fear; and that is what you end up experiencing: you end up experiencing what you know about fear; and then there is the movement, of course, to get rid of fear. And all of this is the fear story. Beyond the fear story, this is alive; this is just aliveness expressing itself as everything. You are absolutely right, we can’t even call it fear because, as I was saying before, you have no way of knowing what this is, you have no way of knowing what this is until the story comes in and calls it something.

Q: But what about the animal inside me – what about this great survival impulse?

And that is another story: the animal in me, the survival impulse. Who would you be without that story?

                                                           ♥♥♥

Q: So, we are just sitting here, but then there are feelings and sensations in the body that I want to get rid of that and…

And has that worked for you?

Q: No, it hasn’t but there is constantly a kind of a war…

Yes, because actually the attempt to escape fear is fuelling fear; the attempt to escape discomfort is fuelling the discomfort. Actually the attempt to escape is the discomfort, they always go together and ultimately it does not work. It appears to work, but ultimately it does not work. If  you want to be free from fear, then will you have to spend the rest of your life trying to get rid of fear, and even when you finally reach that state of no fear in your story, when you think you are finally free from fear… what happens then when fear comes? That is not going to fit in with your story of who you are, so, life is going to become a constant effort to reject, reject, reject the fear. It doesn’t work. The person who claims to be free from fear is at war with fear. The person who says “I am free from anger” is secretly at war with anger, they know anger, they know it very well, otherwise there would be no way of saying that they were free from anger, no way. In the same way, you could never say “I am free from fear” – that is just another identity, born out of fear. THIS doesn’t want to be free from anything, you see? THIS just expresses itself as anything that arises, anything, so anything is free to arise here, and the proof  is that it does, anyway, whether you like it or not. Fear is free to express itself here. The secret is that it is nobody’s.

Q: So anything can arise but you don’t necessarily have to express it?

It’s already expressing itself, life is expressing itself as everything: as sounds, smells, sensations, maybe fear happening, or anger happening or the sound of the fan or a bird singing, it is expressing itself because it is the one expression, it is expressing itself as everything. So, actually, whether it is a bird singing out there or fear arising here, it is all part of the same expression. The suffering begins with me and mine. “My fear” -  and then the attempt to get rid of my fear which was never mine in the first place. And in that, of course, you are actually creating fear. Fear and the search for freedom from fear, they always go together. But there is a kind of security in that, there is a comfort in saying “I am going to get rid of fear, I am going to get rid of anger” because then, you get a future and it is comfortable to have a future and a goal for yourself. Nothing wrong with that of course, we’re just looking at what happens.

Q: When I am in the story of “I am not living properly, I am experiencing pain, there must be something wrong” there is suffering. And yet I see that actually I have no influence whatsoever.

Yes and that seeing is the beginning of Freedom, yes. It is really the beginning of Freedom. It is the crucifixion.

                                                           ♥♥♥

Q: It’s the same thing with happiness as with fear, isn’t it? Wanting happiness to stay or not stay, it is the same movement, isn’t it? Not happiness as love, but happiness about something. Isn’t that the same as fear for something? The same energy in maybe another frequency, but possibly as dangerous, more attached than fear…

If you want to keep anything, whether it is happiness or emptiness or being no one or silence… anything, anything… the moment you want to capture it, there has to be fear of losing it, they have to go together. Happiness comes and goes, there is no such thing as permanence. The search is for permanent pleasure, permanent happiness… and the ultimate permanent happiness that we conceive of is something called enlightenment. But there is nothing permanent about this, nothing, but it is in that search for permanence that we get an identity. So, really it is all about identity, about being something (rather than nothing) in a world that keeps slipping through our fingers.

Q. What about knowledge. And certainty?

Within this, everything comes and goes. Even absolute intellectual certainty comes and goes. That’s just something else we try to keep hold of.

*

Q: Will anger, fear, different feelings, just continue…

There is only what is happening now, that is it.

Q: The less you make a story about it, the easier it gets?

It doesn’t matter what arises here. If fear wants to come in, then, let it come, fear, frustration, whatever. As for this character, fear, frustration, they don’t really come so much anymore but the point is that doesn’t matter: they can if they want to! This isn’t personal, this isn’t about Jeff being special in any way. The paradox of course, is that when it is seen that everything is just allowed to come, then what comes is not a problem anymore. And then your question about what will come in the future simply becomes unimportant.

Q: There is no one allowing it to come.

Yes, exactly, when I say “allowing”, what I mean is that it is already allowed to come because it has come, because it is here. This is already allowed, we don’t have to do this allowing. Say, you are lying down in bed with pain and maybe you picked up the concept from books and teachers that you are supposed to allow everything. So, you sit there, trying to allow the pain, and you say to yourself secretly ”if I allow the pain, the pain will go”, which of course is a secret rejection of pain disguised as the attempt to accept it. (Laughter)

Q: It implies an ‘I’ doesn’t it.

Yes, exactly, it implies an ‘I’ separate from the pain, so it is actually fuelling a sense of separation, a sense of ‘me versus my pain’ and it is a 24 hour job trying to accept everything. It’s exhausting and, again, everything appears to work for a while but, of course, there inevitably will be things I won’t be able to accept.

Q: It seems as though there are two I’s, one that can accept and one that cannot accept?

No, ultimately there is just accepting or rejecting and either way there is nobody doing it. “I accept” or “I reject” are simply stories arising in this.

If you try to accept the pain, you see the pain as a problem that needs to be accepted. The pain never asked you to accept it.

 Q: Then, what is left? What do you do? Nothing!

That can be another tactic, as well:  “Okay, I’ll try and do nothing!”

Q: Last night I had pain in my stomach, and I wanted to get rid of it…

And that is natural, as well. You know, it is natural to want to get rid of pain.

Q: So, then, do I just allow it to be?

Did that work for you?

Q: Yes, it seems to work. Whatever arises is there, so I just try and accept it. But it still seems to be doing something, you know? But it is okay because it worked, it is gone, but ultimately you know, there is no “you” or “me” and there is no “pain”, it is just an idea.

Exactly. You appear to be able to accept until it’s seen that you don’t need to accept, because you are that acceptance.

Q: So, where does the idea come from? Well, that is a stupid question! Not stupid but it is an irrelevant question but still…

It doesn’t come from anywhere, it is there or not. Beyond that you cannot know anything. There is nothing beyond the appearance; there is just the appearance, so any question about where the appearance comes from is coming in the appearance! Any answer I could give you is another appearance.

                                                         ♥♥♥

Q:  There are moments where there is just This and there are moments where the character arises or the thoughts about this character, about how she should be or what other people think of her… is that closer to the truth?

Both are reality: you are not there and you are there; it’s neither and both. No concept can capture it. It’s not even true to say “I am not here” or “there is no one” as that is just another idea.

Q: Yes.

They are not-two. She is there and not there. She is there when she is there.

Q:  Yes, I can see it, there are moments when she is there and there are thoughts about her.

Actually, she only ever appears to be there, she is only there in the appearance. So, she is not there but she appears to be there when she is there!

Q: But to whom is that appearing? Sometimes it seems like there is a separate something and sometimes, I am not bothered, or there is just no thought about anything or…

So, she is a welcome guest when she is there, she comes to visit sometimes.

Q: Probably, this character has to be there sometimes and sometimes it doesn’t.

And that is how it can appear: as though sometimes she is there and sometimes she isn’t… but actually, there is never anyone there, there is only ever what is happening, and it’s only when the story begins that there appears to be someone here.

Q: But that is part of reality, too, in some way?

Yes, of course, what appears seems real but it is beyond real or unreal, or here and not here. Actually: it is a play, a movie. So, when there is absorption in the movie, when you are mesmerized with the movie, yes, there appears to be a character who lives his or her life, who has friends and relationships and so on, and at the same time it is just a movie. So beyond real and unreal, it is a play. There is no Jeff, there is Jeff. No Jeff, Jeff. Still just concepts, ultimately. Beyond that, there is no way of knowing, there is no way of knowing.

Q: There is no way of knowing what it is?

You have no way of knowing what you are, beyond the story of what you are. There is just the not-knowing.

Q: What you are underneath this character, you mean? And still this character is there, somehow?

It appears to be, it is there in the appearance. And you know, every night in deep sleep, the character is wiped out.

Q: Yes, and even during the day, there are times when I am not aware of being there. There is still some confusion there about this whole thing…

Because you cannot understand this! How can you understand that the absence is your presence? How can you ever understand that you are there when you are not there?

Q: So, that is just how it is.

It is just how it is.

Q: “Why?” That, I can never know!?

The not knowing burns up the question, it is like the fire that burns up the question: Who? Why? How? What? Who am I? Where am I? All these questions, they just burn up in the fire of not knowing. What you are is beyond all thought. Thought is trying to capture that which is beyond thought. That is all this is, really: thought is trying to get behind thought.

Q: But when did thought start? (Laughter)

When? Just then. (Laughter)

Q: But it is not even beyond thought or feeling or sensing…. I thought “I am not going into this intellectual thing, going into the feeling thing” but then I saw that even that is another thought ……. So, I dropped that!

What a relief, yes! This is it!

Q: This is it?

Yes, this is it!! (Laughter)

Q: Whatever I do, this character will always be there, somehow, coming and going… and, well, even this thought is coming from the character, actually….

Yes, so, then, there is no problem.

Q: And then, there is no problem. Yes. It is gone.

And all that’s left is the apparent character living the apparent life. And no attempt to get behind it, or know it or understanding it. It is life without the questions.

Q: Because that is the attempt to get rid of it.

Yes, not possible! You are trying to get rid of something that isn’t there. It has no substance.

Q: It is just thoughts.

Yes.

Q: And these thoughts, they arise, they appear have some kind of purpose.

It is literally a story, you can write it out as a story.

Q: The story of me.

Yes, or the story of me.

Q: It is there, it has to be there somehow, but why? I can never know, it just is sometimes and sometimes isn’t.

Yes, that’s the play.

                                               ♥♥♥

Q: What about the permanent seeking of dying?

(Laughter) You have got some good questions today, haven’t you? (More laughter). What is the question again: the permanent seeking of dying?

Q: Well, everything changes, it is completely new in every second, isn’t it?

Yes of course but you would never know that, the newness is not something you could ever know or capture.

Q: Would you repeat it for me so that I can understand?

This is happening.

Q: Now?

Yes, this is happening. This is the miracle, this is Oneness, this is it.

Q: So, my question was already about the past.

Yes, all questions are about the past. And the future is just a projection based on the past.

Q: I am not used to living there. In the now. I don’t know how to do it.

What we are talking about is as simple as sitting on a chair, really. You are making it very, very complicated for yourself.

Q: You recognize that I’m making it complicated for myself?

Yes. It is all right, this is what I used to do as well. And it is innocent, this is what it does. It so desperately wants to know. It thinks there is something to understand. What was seen here was that there was nothing to understand and then, all that was left was sitting on a chair, sounds happening, smells happening, life happening. It is a child-like simplicity.

Q: You are using the word “to understand” and in Dutch the word is “begrijpen” which has the word “grijpen” in it, which means to grasp, and that’s what we do, we try to grasp something that is ungraspable, because it is already gone. It is this constant movement… and it is very tiring.

It is exhausting, yes. That’s why we’re here having this meeting – to see through the grasping, to point to a possibility beyond the seeking and the exhaustion.

                                                          ♥♥♥

Q: It seems that a person there would only be blocking the view. The longing to see it is blocking the seeing of it.

Yes, it is the attempt to understand it that apparently blocks it. Although, of course, ultimately, nothing blocks it because although the attempt to understand is happening, no one is doing that. You are not doing the seeking. If you were doing the seeking, you would stop doing the seeking.

Q: Maybe it is the character still playing at being that character. Why does the character play?

(Silence)

Q: Within the movie, the character is seeking but it doesn’t really have any relevance, does it?

Yes, that is the hardest thing to hear, you know? After a lifetime of seeking, seeing that seeking never had any relevance. It is pretty shocking. It can be, anyway.

(Silence)

Again, it was always a movement away from this. It all began with “this isn’t enough”; that is how it all began, the whole thing, “this isn’t enough, this can’t be it”.

Q: And almost all of us know this; we’ve had the experience that This was enough. And that is what we long for the most…

Yes, we all know this, we’ve always known this.

Q: When did it happen? Was there a point in history when the split happened?

Well, you could tell any story about it. The point is that it never happened. The separation, the seeking only appears to have happened.

(Silence)

From the scientific point of view you could say that what appears to have evolved in humans is the capacity for abstract thought. If we are going to tell a story about it, it’s what appears to have happened. Humans live in abstractions. We live in: Me and My life, Me and My achievements, Me and my seeking, My birth and My death, My enlightenment. Animals don’t seem to be able to do that. You don’t see a cat thinking: “This isn’t enough, when am I going to be enlightened? (Laughter)

Q: It is a kind of a burden.

Yes, it can appear to be a burden until the burden is seen through and you realize that there was never a burden, that there was only ever Life happening. The individual with their life and their seeking… that was only in the appearance, it was only in the abstractions, and abstractions are ultimately harmless.

                                                       ♥♥♥

Q: I have another question: when I wake up, when I am aware that I’ve had dreams, who is the one who knows that?

The same one who asks that question.

Q: But how do I know that I have been dreaming, that I slept well, when I wake up in the morning?

Well, a story appears, and it appears out of nothing, out of the vastness of being or whatever you want to call it, out of this a story appears…

Q: The story of dreams or the story of whatever… appears in concsciousness? What about awareness…

It is the same, it is words: consciousness, awareness, being, this, whatever you want to call it, it’s not an ‘it’ anyway so it’s beyond words. When it is seen that everything is consciousness, there is no consciousness because consciousness needs something separated from consciousness to be called consciousness. In the end this is just consciousness playing, beyond the concept of consciousness.

Q: Consciousness is knowing about consciousness?

All the stories that we tell are really just oneness talking about itself, it is oneness having concepts about itself, it is oneness knowing itself, oneness seeing itself, consciousness seeing itself, and so on.

Q: So, it more or less exists, or not….?

(Groans of laughter)

Q: We need something, before we go home, we need something! (Laughter)

The last day of the retreat, I’ll give you something, I promise!

(Laughter)

I’ll give you a little bag to take home with you.

(More laughter)

Q: So, it’s everything, it is equally talking chairs to each other...

Yes, it is everything, it’s playing at being everything, it’s chairs, it’s concepts about chairs, it’s sounds, it’s talking about consciousness, it’s everything. So, you could never be separate from everything, that is where all the seeking begins, separation from everything. But there is no separation from everything because there is only everything!

Q: So, we can’t measure it, either?

No, of course, you can’t!

Q: When I feel like a child playing, it’s okay?

Yes!

Q: So, I am still that child, also?

Yes!

Q: Because I love playing here and being here!

You can’t mess this up!

(Laughter)

Q: The same happened to Jesus, I think?!

(Groans of laughter)

Yes, maybe that is why they crucified him.

(More laughter)

(Silence)

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Q: In some spiritual traditions, a master gives a mantra to a disciple, and, obviously you are not going to give us one. (Laughter). If I want to remember anything, it should be that “this is it!”

If you want a mantra, you can have that! (Laughter)

Q: It’s like, this is it, pain in my stomach, this is it!!  (Laughter) No hope, no need to accept, no need to welcome, no need to… this is it!

I know you are joking… but of course that would just be an individual with the concept of “This is it”.

Q: I am trying to go in steps!

(Laughter)

What is happening can never leave you. It is funny because we are afraid of losing our concepts because they represent some sort of security but actually they only leave us with insecurity. Because this can’t be captured by a concept, and that is, of course, very threatening to the mind. But in a way, this is the only thing that cannot leave; of course, it is not a thing but we have to use language. This is always This, whatever appearance this may take. The scenery changes, but This is always This, and This is Home.

Q: But who is home?

You’ll drive yourself mad if you start asking: who knows that? who sees that? who…? who…? who….? after everything I say. You’ll drive yourself mad.

Q: Pardon “me”.  (Groans of laughter)

That question leads nowhere, absolutely nowhere. And that’s the point!

(Silence)

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Q: I wonder - how is it for you. Is it simple for you? Other people feel it’s difficult to understand such simplicity. How is that for you?

What I see is that people are trying to understand something that I could never understand. It is not that I understand this; they are trying to understand this. That is all I see – an apparent someone trying to understand, and it’s not possible. And I also know that it can fall away, I know that the attempt to understand can fall away so easily. This will be heard when it is heard and there is no attempt to make anyone see this. I know I cannot make anyone see This because ultimately no one sees it anyway. So, all I can do is share, share This. And I am sharing it with myself, anyway. When I first started doing these meetings, what I started to notice was that questions would pop up in the audience and I recognized these questions: they were all my own questions! I haven’t heard a question yet that wasn’t my question. These are my old questions coming back to meet me in the form of you! All I can do is share how I would have answered that question to myself if I had asked that question years ago. I did ask these questions and I also know that there are no answers. Or that all answers are still in the dream, anyway. But the funny thing that happens is that in these meetings, is that apparent answers arise to meet the apparent questions…

Q: Why do we have to understand this?

You don’t. The thing is that the not-understanding happens and then we think: “I don’t understand, I want to get rid of this not understanding, I want to understand. Once I understand this, the not understanding will go”. What we can’t see is that the attempt to understand is the not understanding and the not understanding is the attempt to understand. They always go together. So, what is wrong with not understanding? Actually, the not understanding is equal to understanding.

Q: So, in this, we play the knower, and also the not knower?

Yes. You can pretend not to know and see someone over there who knows and both are reflections of each other. The one who doesn’t know projects the one who knows, and that’s how the guru-disciple game is born. But all you can do is pretend that there is a student here and a teacher over there, because really there cannot be any such thing.

Q: And this is also your story about what is happening here.

Yes, of course. But ultimately it’s not my story, it just arises to meet the questions here.

                                                        ♥♥♥

Q: Sometimes, you use the word “Jeff” and sometimes you use the word “I”. What is the difference?

It is the same. No one, someone, I, oneness, Jeff… all the same.

Q: So, every time you say “Jeff”, you could also say “I”.

Yes.

Q: And when you say “Jeff, the character”…

It’s the same thing. Jeff, I, the character, the person, the individual, the story. On inspection, it is all just the play of thought. Call it what you will.

Q: Maybe it’s not correct, but I still make the distinction between the character and reality.

Years ago, when I was a very serious and frustrated spiritual seeker, I used to think that Jeff somehow wasn’t real, that That which is behind Jeff was more real than the story of Jeff. That was my hierarchy! It became difficult to function in the world because when people were talking to Jeff, it just didn’t feel real, I just felt detached from the whole thing. I used to feel that it was somehow dishonest to tell stories, so when someone asked me: “Jeff, what did you do yesterday?” I would tell the story but it usually felt dishonest to tell the story, and frustration would arise. I used to think that it was more truthful to say “there is no yesterday” and so it was quite difficult sometimes to live in the world; it felt like there were two realities, and one was somehow more real. It was like being caught between two extremes. What I was missing was that this is a play and that the story and what is beyond the story are not two. When you go to see an actor in a play, he can play the role of a king and you don’t wait until the show is over and go to the stage door and meet the actor and accuse him of being dishonest! You don’t say “you’re not really a king – how dare you pretend to be one!” No, he was honestly and authentically playing at being that character. He was honest about it.

And so these days when someone asks me: “What is your name?” I am no longer trying to play the role of being no one, or trying to play the role of someone who is free from roles; I am not lost in the story of someone who is above and somehow superior to stories because that would be another story, you see, another role? So, the whole thing ends in the playing because when you are really playing, actually there is no one there separate from the play, there is just the playing, and no one there doing the playing or the acting: there is just This. So, never do I ask myself anymore: “Who am I?” - the question doesn’t mean anything because all that is left is the play and the cosmic joke is that that is all there ever was. There has only ever been the play and there is no one there playing, just playing happening. So, then, life is very, very easy because all that’s left is just to be This and to see what happens next in the play. You have no way of knowing; this is a play that you have not seen. No one has seen this yet, no one. So, it is just like a child who says: “What’s next?” “I wonder what is next?” You get to find out! And something is always happening. And maybe tomorrow Jeff will be walking down the road and will be knocked over by a car, I don’t know.

Q: Jeff, I see myself laying down, eating chocolate, and so on. It is very funny!

Yes, you get to really discover the character! You get to see it. Yes, life is very easy because it is always showing you what is really true. The question “What shall I do?” is always being answered. The answer is already there: life is always revealing itself; you just get to see what happens next.

Q: Yes, and it brings so much relaxation because you don’t have to think “am I doing it right? or “what is coming next?”.

Yes, all that’s left is life happening.

NONDUALITY: A RETURN TO INNOCENCE

Jeff: Where is this “mind”, which appears to dominate our lives? Where is the centre, where is the “me”? When we stop for a moment and really look, I mean really look, without preconceptions, without beliefs, without memory, without the filter of spirituality, what is actually there?

All we ever could possibly find is the looking, but nobody there who is doing the looking. There is just the looking. And perhaps not even that.

Nobody is looking. Nobody is thinking. Nobody is hearing, smelling, tasting, sensing. Nobody is living at all.

There is just the most profound emptiness, which is total fullness.

And that empty fullness, that full emptiness is pure aliveness. And you are not separate from that aliveness, which is to say there is no “you” at all. There is nothing solid there.

There is only what is, and nobody there to even name it. Only the Mystery, always the Mystery. Beyond all understanding, beyond any possibility of comprehension. It’s where we always are. It’s what’s happening now. It’s Home.

So why do we never see it?

In the beginning, there was only what was happening. And then something called “mind” appeared to happen. Out of aliveness grew something called a personality, a separate self, an identity. Out of the ocean manifested a single and separate wave. Or that’s the story, anyway.

And as a wave, we tried so desperately to be something in the world, to accumulate money and power, to succeed, to be as beautiful and true and good as possible. And we built up knowledge, accumulated thousands of concepts, we became full of concepts! Stuffed with them!

And that simple, exquisite presence that is our birthright was apparently lost. Although of course it was never lost: there was only ever the ocean.

We apparently lost sight of the obvious. Presence appeared to disappear, and we got lost in something called a world, lost in time and space, lost in the search for something more. The simple joy of being became clouded over by a world, a vast network of concepts, beliefs, religions, ideologies, stories.

Presence seemed to be obscured by the seeking. But where did that search ever get us? Did it ever make us happy? Really, truly happy? Were we ever at peace?

Well, sometimes, perhaps. But did it ultimately satisfy? Were we ever able to come to rest, to relax totally into this moment?

That was the dream: that there was a person, who lived a life, who made choices and accumulated and attempted to someone special in the world. That was the dream: that you were a separate wave.

Are you suggesting that we should give up the seeking?

We would if we could. Isn’t that the spiritual search in a nutshell? To give up? To surrender, to relax into Being, to plunge back into the no-thing?

But here’s the point: it’s always turned into a doing, isn’t it? “I need to give up. Why haven’t I been able to give up yet?” The mind will turn anything into a doing. It will even turn a not-doing into a doing, and spend the rest of its life trying to do that. Trying to do nothing in order to get nowhere. The possibilities are endless. The mind doesn’t want to die.

Oh, the wonderful games we play, trying to save ourselves. We really don’t want to die. And so we create all these terrifying stories about death, and cling ever more tightly to life. Always seeking, always wanting, always hoping. Always fleeing from an illusory past, our attention drawn towards a made-up future.

The wonderful secret is this: death is liberation. It’s the end of mind. And yes, that will happen at the physical death of the body. The plunge into Nothingness, the end of thought, the end of all suffering. The end of the “me”. But isn’t that exactly why we see death as terrifying? Because it’s the end of “me”, the end of my life, my story, my achievements. The end of my world. It’s all about me, isn’t it! We don’t want to lose ourselves. We love our little “me”!

And yet, losing ourselves, as all the great spiritual traditions throughout the ages have taught, is the liberation that we long for more deeply than anything. To lose your self is to lose all suffering, and to plunge into the Nothingness that is total Fullness. Which is to say that death is to see clearly. To be without your story, without your projections, labels, interpretations.

Which is all you have ever seen. No wonder you don’t want to let go of them: it’s all you know.

I’ll be brutally honest: we have never really seen this world. All we have ever seen is mind, interpretation, projection. And our interpretations never satisfy, do they? Because all interpretations are partial, they are fragments, they are just thoughts. So we have only ever seen fragments. We have seen a divided world, when all the while beyond the fragmentation this other possibility has constantly been calling out to us. We have seen this separate from that, me separate from you. But somewhere underneath, this other possibility has been whispering, oh so quietly, that this fragmented story is not the whole story. Fragments are only fragments. Underneath the division, there is something more stunningly beautiful than the mind could ever grasp. And it is only because of this stunning aliveness that anything can exist at all. Everything – every apparent separate thing – is just a manifestation of that aliveness. It’s all Oneness.

But isn’t Oneness just another concept? 

Oh yes, of course. The moment we speak of Oneness and nonduality and liberation and so on, we are using concepts, which are always, always dualistic. We are trying to use concepts to speak of that which is beyond all concepts, trying to use duality to point to unity! And so words will only ever confuse. But as I say over and over again, it’s never about the words. Forget all the words, even these ones. Instead of these words, listen to a bird sing, or look at a flower, or walk through the streets and feel the ground beneath your feet and the wind on your face. That will say more to you than these words ever could!

But in a book, we have to use words. Of course, that’s not entirely true either, we don’t have to do anything at all! But – what can I say - the words come out. The mouth opens, or the pen moves over the paper, and sounds happen, or scribbles happen, and this “Jeff” creature appears to communicate something called nonduality. And watch how the mind latches onto these sounds or words and tries desperately to work out what they are pointing to.

The point is that they are pointing to nothing! Literally, no-thing! These words, if you try to grasp them with the intellect, will only confuse. Like a Zen koan, they will drive the mind crazy.

Until the confusion drops. And then there is only what is, only crystal clear aliveness. And in that, the truth is revealed. Not understood, but revealed. It’s not something that anyone could teach you.

Doesn’t that suggest some sort of process, some sort of transformation in time?

Yes, the moment we say things like “the confusion drops” the mind will immediately latch onto this and create some sort of process out of it. The mind will say “right, I need to drop my confusion so I will get the crystal clarity that Jeff is talking about”. And the mind has saved itself once again!  It has bought itself a future. But of course it has missed the point completely.

The mind loves a future. It gives it life. Without a future - and therefore without a past - the mind has nothing to do, absolutely nothing to do. Oh yes, make no mistake, this message is very threatening to the mind. This message is pointing to nothing less than the end of the mind. And, understandably, that’s the last thing the mind wants to hear.

So it’s not a question of doing, it’s a question of seeing?

But it’s not a seeing like any other seeing. It’s not a seeing that a person can do. It’s not a seeing that requires time.  

The moment any movement is made to do that seeing, to do what we are, we are instantly in the world of illusion. The “I” is born, and gets an identity (as “the one who is trying to see”).

The mind always wants something to do. But we’ve tried everything. We’ve been doing our entire lives, and did it ever satisfy. We’ve been doing in the material world and doing in the spiritual world our whole lives. And did it ever lead to ultimate satisfaction?

And even if something did satisfy deeply, that too would pass. All experiences pass and nothing stays, as the Buddhists have known for thousands of years. Reality is like sand passing through your fingers. We can’t capture a damn thing.

And even if we think we can capture a slice of reality, what happens when illness and old age and death come along? What then? Death will strip away everything: that is the fear of the separate individual. The terror of loss rumbles beneath everything the separate individual does.

But you see, we never had anything in the first place. And when that’s seen in absolute clarity, everything is set free.

*

And so this nonduality thing – and I love how the world has given a name to this -  is not another process, another way of life, another philosophy, another belief system, another doing, although, of course, that’s the way the mind could hear this. Perhaps that’s the only way it could hear this. To hear it any other way might be too threatening.

It’s not a process, because there is no time. This is not going anywhere. It’s just being itself perfectly. If we see clearly, without any story or interpretation from the past, it’s so obvious: there is only this. The heart beating, breathing, sounds happening over there, someone coughing, thoughts just arising and falling away. And nobody is doing it.

Nobody is beating the heart: it’s just beating. Nobody is breathing, breathing is just happening. The world is already free from “you”. You are already absent.

When you said that, a great excitement welled up. It feels like innocence, like a burden lifted….. I don’t know.

Yes, I don’t know either! It’s the mind dying, the burden of self being seen through for the illusion that it is. A plunge into the Unknown, the Unborn, the Undying, which is what you already are. Yes, there can be great excitement. And maybe fear too. But even that is still just a play of mind. “There is excitement”. “There is fear”. Just thoughts. Just thoughts. Arising, dissolving, perfectly. Arising, dissolving, in this clarity, this openness, this transparency that has nothing to do with a personal “you”, yet allows it all fully, with no exception, no exception at all.

It feels like it’s uncontaminated.

Yes. Beautiful, uncontaminated.

Pure. Innocent.

New. Always new.

Always being born for the first time.

This is pure, unconditional love. Our true nature. And yes, those are still just concepts. Throw even those concepts away. “Pure, unconditional love” – still a wonderful belief! What happens when even that ideology dies?

This is the death of all you ever knew. The death of you as you know yourself, as you experience yourself. It’s like a rebirth, into the openness that you always were. Into the openness, the transparency that you knew as a child. We think we lost it, but how could we ever lose something we never had!

Say that again – we never lost it because we never had it?

Yes, because it’s not a thing that we could ever possess. It’s the openness, the space, the transparency, the awareness in which all apparent “things” arise in the first place. The space in which “you” arise. The space that holds all things, embraces all things, allows all things to be exactly as they are. The space that is uncontaminated by what happens. Pain comes and goes, anger comes and goes, wars come and go, dictators die, rain and wind and snow blow through, loved ones arrive and leave, the clouds of life arise, stay for a little bit, and pass, and this openness always is pure, untainted.

And is this openness separate from what arises?

No. There is never any division. It is language that has separated this from that, awareness from its passing content.

The final truth, if you want a final truth, is that awareness and what happens “in” awareness are not two.

Awareness is its content.

And to the mind, this seems like a complete paradox. That the space in which the world arises is identical with that apparent world. That is nonduality. No separation. No separate “me” who sees the world. No separate world to see.

So here’s the shattering conclusion: there is no world.

When there is no “me” to see the world, there is no world either. And yet it’s not a blank nothingness. Even that is just another concept.

What happens when the “me” who sees the world dissolves? And the world along with it?

Here’s what happens:

Did you see it? Did you see that there was nothing to see? That everything that needs to be seen is already being seen?

There is only the simple and obvious present appearance of life. Just this. This is the miracle we were always seeking. And yes, “miracle” is just a world. When the person is not there, there’s not even anyone there to call it a “miracle”. There is only the miracle, only God, only the Tao, only Life Itself, only the One, appearing as a million things.

When the search for the extraordinary “out there” collapses, this is seen to be quite extraordinary. And it’s utterly ordinary. And the whole ordinary/extraordinary duality collapses on itself.

And what are we left with?

Chop wood and carry water. 

Have you finished your soup? Then clean your bowl.

The absolute simplicity of this. Everyday life is the miracle. And how could that ever be seen by a seeking mind?

*

In this, there are never any problems. There is not even that possibility. Life happens, and nobody is doing it. And nobody is there to know it, to interpret it, to criticise it, to want to escape it.

No problems. And even thoughts that claim that there are problems are not a problem, if they were to arise. What’s the worst thing that could ever happen? Just a thought. Nothing to fear anymore. There never was.

Nothing to fear. Not even death. Death is just a concept. I only see life. Death is just an idea.

There is a strange peace here that I cannot name. A sense of - I don’t know - excitement. Is it that way for you?

Life is nothing but that: the peace we cannot name. To name it is to kill it. And yet naming goes on. We could say: this is a chair, that is a table, that is a lampshade. And yet it’s all a wonderful illusion. But why not say “this is a chair”. Of course it’s not a damn chair!

Years ago, when this was first seen, there was a great excitement. Like a wound-up coil being released. A huge release of pressure. The seriousness of life gone. The childlike wonder and playfulness was seen to be the natural state, the way of things. It was all so new and so very dramatic.

These days that seeing is constant, if I had to use language to describe it! This is just in response to your question, you see. I have no idea what “way” it is for me, if truth be told. I know that when I speak, it’s all an illusion, a lie in a way. The reference point, the “me”, has no meaning anymore. That’s to say, this apparent character “Jeff” plays in emptiness, dances in the alive space that has always held him. That’s how I might put it in language. But language… well, it’s never true at all. It’s just a wonderful story being told now, in response to a question, and only in response to a question. When there is no question, there is no movement here.

I see that my question was meaningless. It implies a me and you, you know, a teacher and student.

Yes, beautiful, meaningless, but perfect in that. And also so wonderfully meaningful, because it was asked. No problem. Questions are wonderful, a perfect play of the Divine as they already are. There’s this wonderful apparent play of questions and answers, and people pretending to be people, and having conversations like this and asking dream questions to a dream character in a dream room, and going back to their dream homes and their dream families. We don’t need to get rid of questions, or teachers, or families, or anything.

You speak about the dream. Isn’t that somehow devaluing life? I mean, if it’s all a dream, then why bother, right?

Well, it may be heard that way. When I say dream, I mean this: that the seriousness, the solidity has gone out of it. The edges have melted away. It really is like a dream, that’s what it feels like. Dreaming and waking – what difference?

But it’s not a cold detachment. The paradox is this: when it’s all seen as a dream, it’s all so incredibly intimate. Because all barriers between “me” and “you” fall away. And in that unknowable space, I see you for the first time, every time. And every time I see you, it’s a new you. And in that space, there is love. We always meet in love. Every meeting is a meeting in love.

And if I think I have a problem with you, it’s really just a problem with what I take to be myself. And if I am at war with you, I feel it as war with myself. Because there is not two, there has never been two, there has only ever been One. One appearing as two, as a million things.

The “me and you” division is just an idea, just a creation of thought.

You say it’s just a thought. But it goes so deep.

Yes, yes it does. It does appear to. As children, it begins to be drummed into us! “You are you, and you have a name, and I am me, and I have a name, and there are millions of others like you out there in the world”. And there the violence begins. I’m a Christian, you’re a Jew, he’s a Hindu, she’s a Buddhist. I support one team, one God, one religion, one corporation, one branch of academic knowledge, you support another. My beliefs against yours, her feelings in opposition to his. Division, fragmentation, violence. And there’s no end to it.

But what a wonderful illusion it all is. And the end of the illusion, which is a seeing-through simpler than the mind could ever imagine, there is the end of violence. And then I truly see the one in front of me, with fresh eyes. And know that the one in front of me is really myself. Just a projection. And no, it’s not a cold detachment, it’s unconditional love, it’s exquisitely intimate. But yes, the illusion of individuality appears to go deep.

And that’s just a thought too?

Of course, ultimately it is just another wonderful thought, because nothing could possibly go any deeper than the surface. Nothing can go any deeper than this play of appearances. Something that goes deep, it’s just a thought happening in this appearance. When that thought is believed, when there is mesmerisation with that story, it really feels like something that goes deep! Experience always reflects belief, and belief always mirrors experience, perfectly. Thought creates world. Thought is the world. And so when thought goes, the world goes with it. And when even that thought goes, well.... I can’t even speak of that. It could never be spoken of. It’s…. grace.

*

And so, this apparent world goes on. There is still light and colour and sound and apparent people having apparent conversations. But underneath, oh, there is this… clarity. This spaciousness. Vast, infinite.

Right now, the story could go… we are two people talking together… but you see, even that story arises in the Vastness.

You see, we cannot “reach” liberation. If you believe you are a person in this room, who can reach liberation, that’s exactly the thought and therefore experience that’s clouding the liberation that is always here, always, forever, perfectly.

And yet, nothing could possibly cloud liberation. That thought – well, it too is a perfect expression. And this is where nonduality gets really… exciting, really encompassing, as vast as the universe. Everything, literally everything, is Oneness. And even the confusion, even the “not getting it yet”, even that is Oneness. The absolute collapse of all duality, of better and worse, and right and wrong, of enlightened and unenlightened. The collapse of it all.

And yet, those polar opposites still dance and play, and yes it really is a play, that’s what it feels like. A play, with no purpose or meaning outside of the play. Nothing outside of itself. Everything perfectly itself, timelessly, forever. And yet no separate things at all. Perfection. Perfection in the last place we’d ever look – right, exactly where we are.

Yes, even the confusion, even the suffering is perfect in itself, because even the most intense suffering is just a thought. “I’m suffering” is a thought. It can be a powerful thought, and yes it’s a thought that can appear go “deep” as you said, but ultimately it’s just a thought, because ultimately everything is just a thought. And even “nonduality” is just a thought.

*

Do we hang on to suffering to keep our identity?

Yes, but it’s not something we do. There’s no choice in it. Would we really choose to suffer, if we had the choice? Of course not. It appears to be involuntary. That’s why it’s called suffering. Suffering means “something bad happened to me”.

With “suffering” arises the identity as “sufferer”. They arise together and die together. To let go of suffering is to let go of the one who suffers. So letting go of suffering is terrifying to the mind. The mind projects a void into the absence of the sufferer, the mind is terrified to go into that void, into the Unknown. It’s very much like death. What would be left if I lost my identity as the one who suffers?

Well, the answer is freedom. In the absence of all identity, pure, unadulterated freedom. Freedom to be anything. Freedom to not be anything. No difference. This is why the Buddha spoke of suffering as the great illusion. When I think I am suffering, that is exactly what I experience. And I try desperately to end my suffering. I think this will take time. And in this attempt to end suffering, I create a future.

And what the mind could never see is this: it’s the search for the end of suffering that is maintaining the suffering. And, see if you can see this: it’s the search for the end of suffering that is actually creating suffering in the first place.

So, in looking for peace I’m keeping the suffering going?

And that’s something the mind could never accept. You see, the mind wants to suffer, because in suffering it keeps itself going, makes itself stronger and stronger, keeps itself alive. And the open space, the vastness, the transparency that is your true nature, well, in that there is no need for suffering, no place for it. And yet, out of love, even suffering is allowed. The open space does not deny anything.

And this is not to deny suffering, this is not a cold hearted denial of anything, not at all. That would be to miss the point of this entirely. No, it’s just to say this: suffering only happens for a person. And let’s not deny that. Let’s try to help people if they are suffering, let’s not just say “there’s no individual suffering… so I don’t need to help anyone!” That’s really missing the point. What I’m saying is that for a person, yes, there is suffering, but in the absence of the person, in the space that you are, in the presence, the unconditional love that embraces everything, where is the suffering? Where is the one who suffers? Where is anything at all? Nowhere. It’s all seen to be a dream, an illusion, a trick of thought. And yet the play of apparent suffering goes on, until it doesn’t. And when it doesn’t, it’s seen that the suffering was never there in the first place. Only the story of suffering, the story of a person.

Is anything real?

Yes and no. It’s all the dream of waking life, the dream of a person, the dream of suffering and seeking. And when it’s not seen as a dream, when there is contraction and mesmerisation, it seems so terribly solid, so terribly concrete, so real and so serious. But when all that falls away, it’s and it’s seen to be a play, a fleeting, fragile, beautifully impermanent show, it’s so unreal, so light, so innocent. It’s like a movie. And it’s not a movie that you are sitting back and watching. It’s a movie that you’re totally at one with. And it’s simply because you are no longer there, that you are fully there. When you are not there, you are fully there, because there is nothing to separate you from it. There is only the “it”, which is to say, there is nothing at all.

Nothing is happening here. There is only total stillness.

But things appear to move, don’t they?

Yes, and the key word there is “appear”. It’s all a wonderful appearance. A play of appearances, for nobody. Arising out of the barest emptiness, and yet appearing as total fullness, as full as full can be. Nothing to separate anymore. The end of war.

In the absence of what you call “you”, there is a fullness that you could never imagine. And because it’s all so utterly illusory and impermanent, it all takes on a solidity and a “rightness” that the isolated individual self could never hope to see.

I see that it’s always here. I see that I’ve been driving myself mad in vain. There’s a kind of sadness here, but a strange sense of joy too.

Yes, the sadness… ah, my friend, you were innocent, throughout that whole struggle. The sadness is the loss of that struggle, the death of it, and the innocence of it all, and the joy, well, that is the openness being allowed to breathe again. The openness that you are, that you always were, throughout it all. It’s all unfolding perfectly. The sadness and the joy, and the struggle, all equal in this. All perfectly appropriate, all accepted, all allowed.

This is not a “state” that some people have attained. It’s not something that “Jeff” or anyone else has found. This is just a description of the utterly obvious, so obvious that a newborn baby could see it: there is no separate self. Life has no centre, and never did. This character “Jeff” was never real.

And yet, “Jeff” is apparently talking right now. What a wonderful paradox this all is, to a mind. And I could say this… that I just sit back and watch Jeff as he talks here. But even to say that, it sounds like there is an entity that sees Jeff! No, that’s the illusion, and it’s inevitable that language will just fuel that illusion. There is no “Jeff” who sees “Jeff”.

Here’s what it’s like: Jeff is seen. And Jeff does what he does. And this open space, this transparency is always unaffected, but loves it all, loves it totally, loves it without reservation because the openness is not separate from any of it. And Jeff dances his little dance, sings his little song, and lives his dream life, and one day he will lie down and die and say goodbye to this dream world, and there’s no problem with it, none at all, not even the possibility of that.

Only Presence, only Oneness, only Love. And all is allowed, and all is myself, and really there is nothing called “myself” at all. This will never be understood by the mind.

But somewhere beyond the mind, ah,….that’s where the miracle happens. And this is where we meet today, this is where we always meet. And it all unfolds perfectly. No problems, apart from thinking, and really thinking could never be a problem, because thoughts are just thoughts, they are harmless. And the spiritual search, the search of a lifetime, that’s all just a thought too.

Harmless, all harmless, all benevolent.